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	<title>Comments on: [Oxford] Ted Nelson</title>
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	<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2005/11/30/oxford-ted-nelson/</link>
	<description>Let's just see what happens</description>
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		<title>By: Seth Finkelstein</title>
		<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2005/11/30/oxford-ted-nelson/comment-page-1/#comment-10793</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Finkelstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2005 04:57:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leahweinberger.com/johotheblog_wp/?p=2893#comment-10793</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David, regarding &quot;modern instances&quot;, how does he - or you - know how modern the system is? You&#039;d be surprised at how much legacy code still exists in big companies. And even if some parts are modern, a rewrite of working code can be expensive (and if it&#039;s not broken, don&#039;t fix it).

Look, turn it around. His statement doesn&#039;t pass the sanity test. Does, he, or you, really think the main reason systems don&#039;t deal well with entering spaces or hyphens into phone numbers is merely the sheer jerkiness of programmers? Are they that powerful, that an obvious interface ease-of-use spec can be stopped by their &quot;passively-aggressively requires&quot; at whim?

Finding out the answer to why a given system is so &quot;rigorous&quot; might be an interesting investigation. It&#039;s too easy to say that it&#039;s because the programmer is a passive-aggressive jerk (this holds even if the programmer happens to be a passive-aggressive jerk - that still doesn&#039;t necessarily make it the reason!).
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, regarding &#8220;modern instances&#8221;, how does he &#8211; or you &#8211; know how modern the system is? You&#8217;d be surprised at how much legacy code still exists in big companies. And even if some parts are modern, a rewrite of working code can be expensive (and if it&#8217;s not broken, don&#8217;t fix it).</p>
<p>Look, turn it around. His statement doesn&#8217;t pass the sanity test. Does, he, or you, really think the main reason systems don&#8217;t deal well with entering spaces or hyphens into phone numbers is merely the sheer jerkiness of programmers? Are they that powerful, that an obvious interface ease-of-use spec can be stopped by their &#8220;passively-aggressively requires&#8221; at whim?</p>
<p>Finding out the answer to why a given system is so &#8220;rigorous&#8221; might be an interesting investigation. It&#8217;s too easy to say that it&#8217;s because the programmer is a passive-aggressive jerk (this holds even if the programmer happens to be a passive-aggressive jerk &#8211; that still doesn&#8217;t necessarily make it the reason!).</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Lefkowitz</title>
		<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2005/11/30/oxford-ted-nelson/comment-page-1/#comment-10792</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Lefkowitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leahweinberger.com/johotheblog_wp/?p=2893#comment-10792</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The &quot;British pilot did it first&quot; meme is incorrect, too.  It comes from an early David Lean film called &quot;Breaking The Sound Barrier&quot; which presented a fictional account of the first Mach 1 flight.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://imdb.com/title/tt0044446/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://imdb.com/title/tt0044446/&lt;/a&gt;

Because Yeager&#039;s flight was highly classified at the time, the film was many people&#039;s first encounter with a story of a pilot breaking the long-thought-unbreakable sound barrier.  They assumed it was based on fact, so the &quot;British pilot was first&quot; meme was born.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;British pilot did it first&#8221; meme is incorrect, too.  It comes from an early David Lean film called &#8220;Breaking The Sound Barrier&#8221; which presented a fictional account of the first Mach 1 flight.</p>
<p><a href="http://imdb.com/title/tt0044446/" rel="nofollow">http://imdb.com/title/tt0044446/</a></p>
<p>Because Yeager&#8217;s flight was highly classified at the time, the film was many people&#8217;s first encounter with a story of a pilot breaking the long-thought-unbreakable sound barrier.  They assumed it was based on fact, so the &#8220;British pilot was first&#8221; meme was born.</p>
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		<title>By: dweinberger</title>
		<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2005/11/30/oxford-ted-nelson/comment-page-1/#comment-10791</link>
		<dc:creator>dweinberger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Dec 2005 05:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leahweinberger.com/johotheblog_wp/?p=2893#comment-10791</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jay, thanks for pointing out the error, which was a typo and which I have fixed. (I had initially typed &quot;zigzig.&quot;)

Dave, thanks for the details. Ted conditioned his claim by saying that he was told this by someone who heard it first-hand from Yeager and that he (Ted) trusts the veracity of his source. Obviously, that doesn&#039;t mean the story is true, but that&#039;s the chain of evidence Ted presented.

Seth, Ted was pointing to modern instances of &quot;Don&#039;t enter hyphens&quot; where memory isn&#039;t an issue. So, he may be wrong in his explanation but are you saying that engineers trained in days of memory scarcity have been unable to adapt to memory abundance? That seems pretty unlikely to me. So does your hypothesis that engineers think a using some regular expression code is likely to &quot;introduce errors.&quot;

The no-hyphens policy these days  strikes me as a case of design failure - someone along the way was a jerk -  but I don&#039;t think we need to conclude that the engineers committing it are passive-aggressive. Maybe they&#039;re lazy, maybe the project was rushed,  were required to follow inadequate specs, or maybe they think users ought to be asked to carry some of the burden, or something else. It&#039;s hard to psychoanalyze people on the basis of their string handling (despite the Freudian overtone).
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, thanks for pointing out the error, which was a typo and which I have fixed. (I had initially typed &#8220;zigzig.&#8221;)</p>
<p>Dave, thanks for the details. Ted conditioned his claim by saying that he was told this by someone who heard it first-hand from Yeager and that he (Ted) trusts the veracity of his source. Obviously, that doesn&#8217;t mean the story is true, but that&#8217;s the chain of evidence Ted presented.</p>
<p>Seth, Ted was pointing to modern instances of &#8220;Don&#8217;t enter hyphens&#8221; where memory isn&#8217;t an issue. So, he may be wrong in his explanation but are you saying that engineers trained in days of memory scarcity have been unable to adapt to memory abundance? That seems pretty unlikely to me. So does your hypothesis that engineers think a using some regular expression code is likely to &#8220;introduce errors.&#8221;</p>
<p>The no-hyphens policy these days  strikes me as a case of design failure &#8211; someone along the way was a jerk &#8211;  but I don&#8217;t think we need to conclude that the engineers committing it are passive-aggressive. Maybe they&#8217;re lazy, maybe the project was rushed,  were required to follow inadequate specs, or maybe they think users ought to be asked to carry some of the burden, or something else. It&#8217;s hard to psychoanalyze people on the basis of their string handling (despite the Freudian overtone).</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Finkelstein</title>
		<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2005/11/30/oxford-ted-nelson/comment-page-1/#comment-10790</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Finkelstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2005 18:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leahweinberger.com/johotheblog_wp/?p=2893#comment-10790</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Regarding &quot;He asks why programs insist on us not entering spaces or hyphens into phone numbers. &quot;The real technical reason is the programmer is a jerk.&quot; The engineer, says Ted, passively-aggressively requires the user to do something &quot;rigorous.&quot; This is the techie mentality at its worst.&quot;

While programmers might be jerks, it&#039;s not mere desire to frustrate users. It&#039;s that whole systems used to need to run in memory constraints less than what people now have on their keychains, and the languages were on the whole not friendly to string processing. Much easier to say &quot;Don&#039;t enter spaces or hyphens&quot;, than to spend precious resources and introduce potential errors over it. One can punditificate &quot;That&#039;s wrong!&quot;, and that the cost is worth it - but that&#039;s a different argument, not that programmers are jerks.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding &#8220;He asks why programs insist on us not entering spaces or hyphens into phone numbers. &#8220;The real technical reason is the programmer is a jerk.&#8221; The engineer, says Ted, passively-aggressively requires the user to do something &#8220;rigorous.&#8221; This is the techie mentality at its worst.&#8221;</p>
<p>While programmers might be jerks, it&#8217;s not mere desire to frustrate users. It&#8217;s that whole systems used to need to run in memory constraints less than what people now have on their keychains, and the languages were on the whole not friendly to string processing. Much easier to say &#8220;Don&#8217;t enter spaces or hyphens&#8221;, than to spend precious resources and introduce potential errors over it. One can punditificate &#8220;That&#8217;s wrong!&#8221;, and that the cost is worth it &#8211; but that&#8217;s a different argument, not that programmers are jerks.</p>
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		<title>By: dave rogers</title>
		<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2005/11/30/oxford-ted-nelson/comment-page-1/#comment-10789</link>
		<dc:creator>dave rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leahweinberger.com/johotheblog_wp/?p=2893#comment-10789</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Ted Nelson&#039;s a pretty cool guy, but he&#039;s way off base on Yeager/Von Braun, and that makes the other anecdotes suspect as well.

There&#039;s no way Yeager could have &quot;gone orbital,&quot; no friggin&#039; way. If if were that easy Burt Rutan would have done it already, and it&#039;s simply not.

There is a lot of political fighting in the history of America&#039;s first orbital shot, and Von Braun could have gotten us there before the Russians, but that&#039;s another story.

Parochially, I&#039;m sad to say it was Navy&#039;s Vanguard that was the basket into which all our orbital eggs were laid, and when it became clear that no way was Vanguard ready for prime time, it was the Army and Von Braun&#039;s Redstone that stepped into the breech.

But no way was the Bell X-1 able to achieve anything remotely approaching orbital velocity (~17,000 mph).
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Ted Nelson&#8217;s a pretty cool guy, but he&#8217;s way off base on Yeager/Von Braun, and that makes the other anecdotes suspect as well.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s no way Yeager could have &#8220;gone orbital,&#8221; no friggin&#8217; way. If if were that easy Burt Rutan would have done it already, and it&#8217;s simply not.</p>
<p>There is a lot of political fighting in the history of America&#8217;s first orbital shot, and Von Braun could have gotten us there before the Russians, but that&#8217;s another story.</p>
<p>Parochially, I&#8217;m sad to say it was Navy&#8217;s Vanguard that was the basket into which all our orbital eggs were laid, and when it became clear that no way was Vanguard ready for prime time, it was the Army and Von Braun&#8217;s Redstone that stepped into the breech.</p>
<p>But no way was the Bell X-1 able to achieve anything remotely approaching orbital velocity (~17,000 mph).</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Federman</title>
		<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2005/11/30/oxford-ted-nelson/comment-page-1/#comment-10788</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Federman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2005 04:44:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leahweinberger.com/johotheblog_wp/?p=2893#comment-10788</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I love Ted Nelson, ever since I found his Computer Lib/Dream Machines book in Sausalito in the late 1970s. I had the privilege of meeting him and hearing him speak (more like watching him perform) a few years ago when he came to Toronto. Since then, I always identify him with Christopher Lloyd&#039;s Dr. Emmett Brown character from &lt;em&gt;Back to the Future&lt;/em&gt;.

I can&#039;t help but think that his conceptions for organizing information, via both Xanadu/Translit and ZigZag, has much to do with his ADHD, and his need to attempt to gain some measure of control of his hyperawareness.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love Ted Nelson, ever since I found his Computer Lib/Dream Machines book in Sausalito in the late 1970s. I had the privilege of meeting him and hearing him speak (more like watching him perform) a few years ago when he came to Toronto. Since then, I always identify him with Christopher Lloyd&#8217;s Dr. Emmett Brown character from <em>Back to the Future</em>.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t help but think that his conceptions for organizing information, via both Xanadu/Translit and ZigZag, has much to do with his ADHD, and his need to attempt to gain some measure of control of his hyperawareness.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Fienberg</title>
		<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2005/11/30/oxford-ted-nelson/comment-page-1/#comment-10787</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Fienberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leahweinberger.com/johotheblog_wp/?p=2893#comment-10787</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great and neat, about Ted Nelson!

Your reference to ZigZag is a little off: it&#039;s ZigZag, not ZigZig, and the URL is:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nongnu.org/gzz/gi/gi.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.nongnu.org/gzz/gi/gi.html&lt;/a&gt;

From what I can tell, ZigZag could represent facets, but wouldn&#039;t limit each facet to being mutually exclusive terms.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great and neat, about Ted Nelson!</p>
<p>Your reference to ZigZag is a little off: it&#8217;s ZigZag, not ZigZig, and the URL is:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nongnu.org/gzz/gi/gi.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nongnu.org/gzz/gi/gi.html</a></p>
<p>From what I can tell, ZigZag could represent facets, but wouldn&#8217;t limit each facet to being mutually exclusive terms.</p>
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