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	<title>Comments on: Akma, Judaism, and the pleasures of blogs</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2007/04/26/akma-judaism-and-the-pleasures-of-blogs/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2007/04/26/akma-judaism-and-the-pleasures-of-blogs/</link>
	<description>Let's just see what happens</description>
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		<title>By: Rene Des Cartesbeforethehorse</title>
		<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2007/04/26/akma-judaism-and-the-pleasures-of-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-13495</link>
		<dc:creator>Rene Des Cartesbeforethehorse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 21:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leahweinberger.com/johotheblog_wp/?p=3672#comment-13495</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The only thing that I think I can say that I know about God, from my finite intellect, mind you, is that I think that I know what I mean when I think, but not so perfectly, as in math.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only thing that I think I can say that I know about God, from my finite intellect, mind you, is that I think that I know what I mean when I think, but not so perfectly, as in math.</p>
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		<title>By: Bauer Feurbach</title>
		<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2007/04/26/akma-judaism-and-the-pleasures-of-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-13494</link>
		<dc:creator>Bauer Feurbach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 21:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leahweinberger.com/johotheblog_wp/?p=3672#comment-13494</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;God&quot; is a concept of one&#039;s own superego universalised, that is, a hyper-consciousness of a father complex, but always someones power trip. It changes nothing ex nihilo.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;God&#8221; is a concept of one&#8217;s own superego universalised, that is, a hyper-consciousness of a father complex, but always someones power trip. It changes nothing ex nihilo.</p>
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		<title>By: AKMA</title>
		<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2007/04/26/akma-judaism-and-the-pleasures-of-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-13493</link>
		<dc:creator>AKMA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 20:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leahweinberger.com/johotheblog_wp/?p=3672#comment-13493</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I hear Williams touching on, alluding to, the [Christian] doctrine that the world was created &lt;i&gt;ex nihilo&lt;/i&gt;; that point has particular pertinence to other doctrinal elements, and I take his invocation of it as an allusive echo.

In the context, he seems to me to be saying that Christians are called into a community from no single pre-existing entity; the Christian community &lt;em&gt;was not&lt;/em&gt; before it was called into being, and no other characterization holds priority over our identity as Christians.

Relative to Judaism, I suspect that Williams might identify the call to Abram as a constitution &lt;i&gt;ex nihilo&lt;/i&gt; of the people of Israel; before Abram responded to the divine voice, there was not &#8220;a people&#8221; of God. After Abram and Sarai set out for the land that he had been promised, the extended family unit looks like an inaugural version of &#8220;God&#8217;s people.&#8221;

But he may also have allowed the Christian theological theme of &lt;i&gt;ex nihilo&lt;/i&gt; to overdetermine his remarks relative to Judaism; I, in turn, would be intrigued to hear how Peter Ochs reponds to Williams&#8217;s hermeneutics.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hear Williams touching on, alluding to, the [Christian] doctrine that the world was created <i>ex nihilo</i>; that point has particular pertinence to other doctrinal elements, and I take his invocation of it as an allusive echo.</p>
<p>In the context, he seems to me to be saying that Christians are called into a community from no single pre-existing entity; the Christian community <em>was not</em> before it was called into being, and no other characterization holds priority over our identity as Christians.</p>
<p>Relative to Judaism, I suspect that Williams might identify the call to Abram as a constitution <i>ex nihilo</i> of the people of Israel; before Abram responded to the divine voice, there was not &#8220;a people&#8221; of God. After Abram and Sarai set out for the land that he had been promised, the extended family unit looks like an inaugural version of &#8220;God&#8217;s people.&#8221;</p>
<p>But he may also have allowed the Christian theological theme of <i>ex nihilo</i> to overdetermine his remarks relative to Judaism; I, in turn, would be intrigued to hear how Peter Ochs reponds to Williams&#8217;s hermeneutics.</p>
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		<title>By: Heckuva Man</title>
		<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2007/04/26/akma-judaism-and-the-pleasures-of-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-13492</link>
		<dc:creator>Heckuva Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:08:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leahweinberger.com/johotheblog_wp/?p=3672#comment-13492</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Your grandpa&#039;s cane
It turns into a sword
Your grandma prays to pictures
That are pasted on a board
Everything inside my pockets
Your uncle steals
Then you ask why I don&#039;t live here
Honey, I can&#039;t believe that you&#039;re for real.
Well, there&#039;s fist fights in the kitchen
They&#039;re enough to make me cry
The mailman comes in
Even he&#039;s gotta take a side
Even the butler
He&#039;s got something to prove
Then you ask why I don&#039;t live here
Honey, how come you don&#039;t move?
&lt;/i&gt;

In a nutshell, no one would have a choice about a Divinity, if he-she is really all he-she is cracked up to be, one way or another, like it or not, so why dribble all over ourselves about such a Being? I only hope a sense of humor is included, or I&#039;m out. Are we not playing with words?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Your grandpa&#8217;s cane<br />
It turns into a sword<br />
Your grandma prays to pictures<br />
That are pasted on a board<br />
Everything inside my pockets<br />
Your uncle steals<br />
Then you ask why I don&#8217;t live here<br />
Honey, I can&#8217;t believe that you&#8217;re for real.<br />
Well, there&#8217;s fist fights in the kitchen<br />
They&#8217;re enough to make me cry<br />
The mailman comes in<br />
Even he&#8217;s gotta take a side<br />
Even the butler<br />
He&#8217;s got something to prove<br />
Then you ask why I don&#8217;t live here<br />
Honey, how come you don&#8217;t move?<br />
</i></p>
<p>In a nutshell, no one would have a choice about a Divinity, if he-she is really all he-she is cracked up to be, one way or another, like it or not, so why dribble all over ourselves about such a Being? I only hope a sense of humor is included, or I&#8217;m out. Are we not playing with words?</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2007/04/26/akma-judaism-and-the-pleasures-of-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-13491</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 15:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leahweinberger.com/johotheblog_wp/?p=3672#comment-13491</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David - I&#039;m finding that passage a real stumbling-block myself. I&#039;m sure he&#039;s not saying what you think he&#039;s saying, but it&#039;s hard to work out what else he &lt;b&gt;could&lt;/b&gt; be saying. Paging AKMA...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David &#8211; I&#8217;m finding that passage a real stumbling-block myself. I&#8217;m sure he&#8217;s not saying what you think he&#8217;s saying, but it&#8217;s hard to work out what else he <b>could</b> be saying. Paging AKMA&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: David Weinberger</title>
		<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2007/04/26/akma-judaism-and-the-pleasures-of-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-13490</link>
		<dc:creator>David Weinberger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leahweinberger.com/johotheblog_wp/?p=3672#comment-13490</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Phil, thanks, but I&#039;m having trouble getting past my reading of Williams&#039; passage. He really sounds to me to be saying that the activity of hearing the Bible in public (hearing=being summoned by it -- obviously he&#039;s not referring to having a minister&#039;s breath beat on your ear drums) creates community out of nothing. I take &quot;out of nothing&quot; to mean that before the hearing, there was no community, not (of course) that the Bible is nothing! The Bible creates the community, and thus is not a mere text to be read; the reading that summons is a public act. That is what I take Willliams as saying. Am I misunderstanding him?

How that fits with other Christians&#039; beliefs is not a question I&#039;m fit to begin to address.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil, thanks, but I&#8217;m having trouble getting past my reading of Williams&#8217; passage. He really sounds to me to be saying that the activity of hearing the Bible in public (hearing=being summoned by it &#8212; obviously he&#8217;s not referring to having a minister&#8217;s breath beat on your ear drums) creates community out of nothing. I take &#8220;out of nothing&#8221; to mean that before the hearing, there was no community, not (of course) that the Bible is nothing! The Bible creates the community, and thus is not a mere text to be read; the reading that summons is a public act. That is what I take Willliams as saying. Am I misunderstanding him?</p>
<p>How that fits with other Christians&#8217; beliefs is not a question I&#8217;m fit to begin to address.</p>
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		<title>By: Elian Hadadad</title>
		<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2007/04/26/akma-judaism-and-the-pleasures-of-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-13489</link>
		<dc:creator>Elian Hadadad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:17:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leahweinberger.com/johotheblog_wp/?p=3672#comment-13489</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A true Northpolean--that is, opposed to a neo-Northpolean--would see such a view precisely as Libertinism or, even worse, gross materialism, Phil. Even Dostoevsky and De Sade would shudder once or twice. I would veto such a proposal myself, and let nature take its course.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A true Northpolean&#8211;that is, opposed to a neo-Northpolean&#8211;would see such a view precisely as Libertinism or, even worse, gross materialism, Phil. Even Dostoevsky and De Sade would shudder once or twice. I would veto such a proposal myself, and let nature take its course.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2007/04/26/akma-judaism-and-the-pleasures-of-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-13488</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leahweinberger.com/johotheblog_wp/?p=3672#comment-13488</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just a quick postscript to that long comment - I&#039;ve looked back at Williams&#039; lecture, and I&#039;m seriously puzzled by that phrase &#039;out of nothing&#039;. I suppose you could argue that the Christian church was originally created &#039;out of nothing&#039; by evangelism, but I&#039;m not sure how this sits with the historical continuity of the church. Odd.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a quick postscript to that long comment &#8211; I&#8217;ve looked back at Williams&#8217; lecture, and I&#8217;m seriously puzzled by that phrase &#8216;out of nothing&#8217;. I suppose you could argue that the Christian church was originally created &#8216;out of nothing&#8217; by evangelism, but I&#8217;m not sure how this sits with the historical continuity of the church. Odd.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2007/04/26/akma-judaism-and-the-pleasures-of-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-13487</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leahweinberger.com/johotheblog_wp/?p=3672#comment-13487</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;I assumed ... Williams&#039; reference to communities forming &quot;out of nothing&quot; wasn&#039;t (just) to the historic foundational event of Christian history. but to the continuing creation of communities by hearing the Bible read in particular houses of worship at particular times&lt;/i&gt;

Good Lord, no. Absolutely not.

Before going further I should say that I&#039;m in an odd position here, partly because I&#039;m strictly an ex-Christian, but mainly because the form of Christianity I no longer believe in (but still sympathise with) is quite big on the discontinuity between old and the new covenants. So I was just as uncomfortable as you with Williams&#039; repeated stress on the continuity between the two, albeit for the opposite reason. But I think he makes a very good case for continuity; if it is wrong it&#039;s wrong in a way I haven&#039;t got to the bottom of.

It certainly isn&#039;t wrong in the way you suggest. For believers, the Christian church - the &#039;body of Christ&#039; - is precisely a community which extends over space and time; it&#039;s instantiated or made physically present by the religious service, but it&#039;s certainly not &lt;b&gt;created&lt;/b&gt;. Here&#039;s C.S. Lewis from &lt;i&gt;The Screwtape Letters&lt;/i&gt; (supposedly written by a senior devil to a junior):

&quot;One of our great allies at present is the Church itself. Do not misunderstand me. I do not mean the Church as we see her spread but through all time and space and rooted in eternity, terrible as an army with banners. That, I confess, is a spectacle which makes our boldest tempters uneasy. But fortunately it is quite invisible to these humans. All your patient sees is the half-finished, sham Gothic erection on the new building estate. ...  When he gets to his pew and looks round him he sees just that selection of his neighbours whom he has hitherto avoided. You want to lean pretty heavily on those neighbours. Make his mind flit to and fro between an expression like &#039;the body of Christ&#039; and the actual faces in the next pew.&quot;

And so on. The punters in the pews are &#039;the body of Christ&#039;, but they don&#039;t constitute it or create it from nothing.

I can see I&#039;m going to have to re-read Williams&#039; lecture, to work out what he was going on about. I blogged on it &lt;a href=&quot;http://gapingsilence.wordpress.com/2007/04/19/not-mine/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, incidentally.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I assumed &#8230; Williams&#8217; reference to communities forming &#8220;out of nothing&#8221; wasn&#8217;t (just) to the historic foundational event of Christian history. but to the continuing creation of communities by hearing the Bible read in particular houses of worship at particular times</i></p>
<p>Good Lord, no. Absolutely not.</p>
<p>Before going further I should say that I&#8217;m in an odd position here, partly because I&#8217;m strictly an ex-Christian, but mainly because the form of Christianity I no longer believe in (but still sympathise with) is quite big on the discontinuity between old and the new covenants. So I was just as uncomfortable as you with Williams&#8217; repeated stress on the continuity between the two, albeit for the opposite reason. But I think he makes a very good case for continuity; if it is wrong it&#8217;s wrong in a way I haven&#8217;t got to the bottom of.</p>
<p>It certainly isn&#8217;t wrong in the way you suggest. For believers, the Christian church &#8211; the &#8216;body of Christ&#8217; &#8211; is precisely a community which extends over space and time; it&#8217;s instantiated or made physically present by the religious service, but it&#8217;s certainly not <b>created</b>. Here&#8217;s C.S. Lewis from <i>The Screwtape Letters</i> (supposedly written by a senior devil to a junior):</p>
<p>&#8220;One of our great allies at present is the Church itself. Do not misunderstand me. I do not mean the Church as we see her spread but through all time and space and rooted in eternity, terrible as an army with banners. That, I confess, is a spectacle which makes our boldest tempters uneasy. But fortunately it is quite invisible to these humans. All your patient sees is the half-finished, sham Gothic erection on the new building estate. &#8230;  When he gets to his pew and looks round him he sees just that selection of his neighbours whom he has hitherto avoided. You want to lean pretty heavily on those neighbours. Make his mind flit to and fro between an expression like &#8216;the body of Christ&#8217; and the actual faces in the next pew.&#8221;</p>
<p>And so on. The punters in the pews are &#8216;the body of Christ&#8217;, but they don&#8217;t constitute it or create it from nothing.</p>
<p>I can see I&#8217;m going to have to re-read Williams&#8217; lecture, to work out what he was going on about. I blogged on it <a href="http://gapingsilence.wordpress.com/2007/04/19/not-mine/" rel="nofollow">here</a>, incidentally.</p>
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		<title>By: Lester Hedges</title>
		<link>http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2007/04/26/akma-judaism-and-the-pleasures-of-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-13486</link>
		<dc:creator>Lester Hedges</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leahweinberger.com/johotheblog_wp/?p=3672#comment-13486</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Funny. &quot;God&quot; has no religion, so why should we? Furthermore, a Northpolean would be no more one or the other, if at all!
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny. &#8220;God&#8221; has no religion, so why should we? Furthermore, a Northpolean would be no more one or the other, if at all!</p>
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