[2005-03-09 07:11:35] Hi Alvy! [2005-03-09 07:12:35] HI all [2005-03-09 07:13:26] hi alvy [2005-03-09 07:15:02] *** nachop (~nacho@151.Red-83-42-137.pooles.rima-tde.net) joined [2005-03-09 07:15:36] Hi nachop [2005-03-09 07:20:34] *** johng quit ("Snak 4.13 IRC For Mac - http://www.snak.com") [2005-03-09 07:22:06] hola [2005-03-09 07:22:29] *** nachop quit ("Snak 4.13 IRC For Mac - http://www.snak.com") [2005-03-09 07:26:44] *** marc-o (~marc-o@129.194.47.50) joined [2005-03-09 07:29:46] *** DanGillmor quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) [2005-03-09 07:31:04] *** fernand0 changed nick to ferOff [2005-03-09 07:32:21] phising de iberia [2005-03-09 07:32:27] sorry [2005-03-09 07:35:56] *** now talking in #madridopendemo [2005-03-09 07:35:56] *** topic is http://english.safe-democracy.org/ [2005-03-09 07:35:56] *** set by JoiIto on Tue Mar 08 23:52:14 2005 [2005-03-09 07:35:56] [freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots, please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup [2005-03-09 07:35:57] *** channel #madridopendemo mode is +n [2005-03-09 07:35:57] *** channel created at Tue Mar 08 09:42:21 2005 [2005-03-09 07:36:18] *** joho quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) [2005-03-09 07:36:19] *** dweinberger changed nick to joho [2005-03-09 07:41:23] *** Q-FUNK quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") [2005-03-09 07:49:42] *** DanGillmor (~chatzilla@213.229.139.162) joined [2005-03-09 07:49:42] DanGillmor is blogging at http://dangillmor.com and the author of a book called "We, the Media" [2005-03-09 07:49:55] *** ethanz quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) [2005-03-09 07:54:14] *** Tomg2005 quit ( ) [2005-03-09 07:57:55] *** weaverluke quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) [2005-03-09 07:58:22] *** weaverluke (~weaverluk@bb-195-172-50-182.ukonline.co.uk) joined [2005-03-09 07:59:53] *** jalonso (~chatzilla@213.229.139.162) joined [2005-03-09 08:13:08] *** weaverluke quit ( ) [2005-03-09 08:17:15] *** cacheop (~alba@ool-182ce885.dyn.optonline.net) joined [2005-03-09 08:17:23] *** AndrewMcGoogle quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) [2005-03-09 08:19:41] *** cacheop quit (Client Quit) [2005-03-09 08:28:03] *** JoiIto quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)) [2005-03-09 08:28:14] *** jalonso quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) [2005-03-09 08:28:23] *** RMacK quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)) [2005-03-09 08:37:53] *** wseltzer quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) [2005-03-09 08:38:19] *** Croqueteer quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) [2005-03-09 08:46:26] *** DanGillmor quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) [2005-03-09 08:55:09] *** _sj_ changed nick to _sj|wh_ [2005-03-09 09:07:29] *** _sj|wh_ changed nick to _sj_ [2005-03-09 09:36:18] *** jalonso (~chatzilla@213.229.139.162) joined [2005-03-09 09:36:57] *** DanGillmor (~chatzilla@213.229.139.162) joined [2005-03-09 09:36:57] DanGillmor is blogging at http://dangillmor.com and the author of a book called "We, the Media" [2005-03-09 09:40:42] *** wseltzer (~wseltzer@213.229.139.162) joined [2005-03-09 09:40:42] wseltzer is Wendy Seltzer and works for the EFF and blogs at http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/ [2005-03-09 09:47:39] *** ferOff changed nick to fernand0 [2005-03-09 09:48:38] re fernand0 [2005-03-09 09:49:46] *** AndrewMcGoogle (~andrewmcg@213.229.139.162) joined [2005-03-09 09:50:13] *** ethanz (~ethan@213.229.139.162) joined [2005-03-09 09:50:14] ethanz is in western MA, USA, blogs at http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethan, and mostly spends his time thinking about Africa [2005-03-09 09:50:34] re rvr [2005-03-09 09:50:47] ?def ethanz and knows how to build a mean ger [2005-03-09 09:50:48] Nobody has defined ethanz and knows how to build a mean ger yet [2005-03-09 09:51:20] what's wrong with my jibot syntax? [2005-03-09 09:51:42] ?def ethanz is knows how to build a mean ger [2005-03-09 09:51:43] ethanz is in western MA, USA, blogs at http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethan, and mostly spends his time thinking about Africa and knows how to build a mean ger [2005-03-09 09:51:52] ah! [2005-03-09 09:51:55] need the "is" [2005-03-09 09:51:56] AndrewMcGoogle: "is" :) [2005-03-09 09:53:21] ?def andrewmcgoogle is lives in New York and posts stuff occasionally at http://andrewmcblog.com and here's his bio: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/mclaughlin.html [2005-03-09 09:53:22] andrewmcgoogle is lives in New York and posts stuff occasionally at http://andrewmcblog.com and here's his bio: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/mclaughlin.html [2005-03-09 09:54:12] it's a mean ger, Andrew, but the roof keeps collapsing. Until I spend the summer inKyrgyzstan, I think I'm not yet willing to have it part of my jibot desc... :-) [2005-03-09 09:54:51] like I said: a MEAN ger. neither a maximum nor a minimum it be. [2005-03-09 09:55:06] ?def ethanz is in western MA, USA, blogs at http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethan, and mostly spends his time thinking about Africa and bacon. [2005-03-09 09:55:07] ethanz is in western MA, USA, blogs at http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethan, & mostly spends his time thinking about Africa & knows how to build a mean ger & in western MA, USA, blogs at http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethan, & mostly spends his time thinking about Africa & bacon. [2005-03-09 09:55:19] ug. jibot, that's not what I meant! [2005-03-09 09:55:25] by the way, ?def is cumulative [2005-03-09 09:55:28] Yes [2005-03-09 09:55:28] :-P [2005-03-09 09:55:43] andrew - the roof was most recently at a local minimum, not a mean... [2005-03-09 09:56:00] *** JoiIto (~joi@JoiIto.silver.supporter.pdpc) joined [2005-03-09 09:56:07] andrew - is there a non-cumulative ?def equivalent? [2005-03-09 09:56:07] depends on your relative point of view, doesn't it? [2005-03-09 09:56:08] can someone explain why we're using irc rather than jabber, btw? [2005-03-09 09:56:23] ?forget ethanz in [2005-03-09 09:56:24] I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle [2005-03-09 09:56:29] we want to be open and transparent. :-) [2005-03-09 09:56:29] *** rrs_listen (~chatzilla@bdsl.66.12.105.132.gte.net) joined [2005-03-09 09:56:42] ?forget ethanz is [2005-03-09 09:56:42] I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle [2005-03-09 09:57:06] ?forget ethanz is in western MA, USA, blogs at http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethan, [2005-03-09 09:57:06] I now only know that ethanz is mostly spends his time thinking about Africa & knows how to build a mean ger & in western MA, USA, blogs at http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethan, & mostly spends his time thinking about Africa & bacon. [2005-03-09 09:57:06] ?forget ethanz is in western MA, USA, blogs at http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethan, & mostly spends his time thinking about Africa & knows how to build a mean ger & in western MA, USA, blogs at http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethan, & mostly spends his time thinking about Africa & bacon. [2005-03-09 09:57:07] I no longer know anything about ethanz [2005-03-09 09:57:07] I did not know ethanz was in western MA, USA, blogs at http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethan, [2005-03-09 09:57:23] ?def ethanz [2005-03-09 09:57:23] Nobody has defined ethanz yet [2005-03-09 09:57:24] ethanz, it's all yours again [2005-03-09 09:57:32] where's dan? [2005-03-09 09:57:46] ?def ethanz is Ethan Zuckerman [2005-03-09 09:57:47] ethanz is Ethan Zuckerman [2005-03-09 09:57:53] AndrewMcGoogle: Would be easier the ?forgetme :) [2005-03-09 09:57:53] ?forget,e [2005-03-09 09:58:01] ?forgetme [2005-03-09 09:58:01] I have expunged ethanz from my mind [2005-03-09 09:58:02] ?def ethanz is Ethan Zuckerman [2005-03-09 09:58:02] ethanz is Ethan Zuckerman [2005-03-09 09:58:25] rvr: er, yes.. [2005-03-09 09:58:34] ?forgetme [2005-03-09 09:58:34] I have expunged ethanz from my mind [2005-03-09 09:58:35] Hi Joi [2005-03-09 09:58:41] hey victor [2005-03-09 09:59:54] ?def ethanz is usually in western MA, USA. blogs at http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethan and spends most of his time thinking about Africa or bacon. [2005-03-09 09:59:55] ethanz is usually in western MA, USA. blogs at http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethan and spends most of his time thinking about Africa or bacon. [2005-03-09 10:02:07] marko - reconvening until 6pm (two hours from now) Working on the Weinberger and Mackinnon drafts [2005-03-09 10:02:25] marko - trying to make sure we're in agreement on the principles, less interested in the wordsmithing aspect of things [2005-03-09 10:03:07] joi - tomorrow, reporteurs will summarize discussion, not specifically about the document. But we'll highlight the document in that discussion [2005-03-09 10:03:34] marko - likely to be about a hundred people seated in the room. Q&A and discussion afterwards [2005-03-09 10:03:48] *** Croqueteer (~davidasmi@213.229.139.162) joined [2005-03-09 10:03:55] DanGillmor - should point out the places where we had different views, not just places of agreement [2005-03-09 10:04:26] joi - TheWeinbergerDraft is, perhaps, a bit more organized, though the Mackinnon draft has two great sentences. [2005-03-09 10:04:47] both drafts are on the wiki, for anyone playing from home... [2005-03-09 10:05:33] socialtext.net/madrid-internet/index.cgi?mackinnon_draft [2005-03-09 10:05:49] ("WeinbergerDraft" is a placeholder name for what was very much a group effort.) [2005-03-09 10:06:10] joi, reading: The internet is the foundation of democratic society in the 21st century and it must harmonize with the ideals upon which all democratic societies are built. [2005-03-09 10:06:21] joi - barlow offered some pushback on the use of the word "democracy" [2005-03-09 10:06:58] Weinberger draft is a prelude to "The Weinberger Doctrine"! :-) [2005-03-09 10:07:26] davidw - very much a group effort, despite the title. Structure first, content last [2005-03-09 10:08:10] davidw - four parts - alignment of democracy and internet, acknowledgement that internet can be useful to terrorists, very thing that make the internet powerful for democracy make it useful for terrorists [2005-03-09 10:08:24] davidw - making the internet less useful for terrorists makes it less useful for democracy [2005-03-09 10:08:42] davidw - there are ways of adressing those weaknesses that are compatible with dem. values [2005-03-09 10:08:49] davidw - close with some recommendations [2005-03-09 10:09:01] davidw - the internet is one of the greatest forces for dem [2005-03-09 10:09:37] davidw is now reading the draft too quickly for me to type. It's on the wiki [2005-03-09 10:10:18] http://www.socialtext.net/madrid-internet/index.cgi?weinberger_draft [2005-03-09 10:13:14] desi - wasn't certain what it means - giving access to those the state has approved? [2005-03-09 10:13:27] davidw - that was in the "responding to fear-ism" section [2005-03-09 10:13:43] joi - George Tenet had suggested that people be licensed to use the internet [2005-03-09 10:13:52] desi - not comfortable with it [2005-03-09 10:14:03] davidw - that's why it's something we're opposed to in the draft! [2005-03-09 10:14:36] ejovi - question about "terrorists have used the internet to support their aims?" I know of no terrorist attacks against the internet... [2005-03-09 10:14:55] ejovi - might happen in the future, but hasn't happened yet [2005-03-09 10:15:31] paul - possible to degrade internet service for a period of time, but cannnot be fundamentally altered by a terrorist attack [2005-03-09 10:15:59] paul - an angry teenager can give anyone a bad day, but internet is resistant to attack - attack will stop or be routed around [2005-03-09 10:16:03] "terrorists cannot destroy the internet" sounds like it would be true-er [2005-03-09 10:16:41] paul - terrorists cannot destroy the internet, but you can destroy it through bad legislation [2005-03-09 10:16:57] DanG - "destroy" might be a better word than "damage" [2005-03-09 10:18:20] *** isen (~chatzilla@213.229.139.162) joined [2005-03-09 10:18:20] isen is blogging at http://isen.com/blog [2005-03-09 10:18:27] joi - internet is a cornerstone of democracy in the same way that free markets were a cornerstone in the past. architectural attacks on the internet are substantial, but terrorist attacks in comparison are temporary [2005-03-09 10:19:10] the Internet is a cornerstone the way the Press is [2005-03-09 10:19:13] marc - troubled by formulation of section two - openness of the internet makes it useful to terrorists - doesn't that invert the point we want to make [2005-03-09 10:19:37] marc - openness is likely to be more resistant to terrorism, both in gov't and in net architecture [2005-03-09 10:20:36] Any useful technology is useful to actors with all kinds of intentions [2005-03-09 10:21:13] marc - is this the problem we want to phrase? if people don't believe or problem, they're unlikely to be compelled by our solution [2005-03-09 10:21:48] marc - there may be problems on the internet as there are in democ. society. We're more likely to address these problems in an open society and open internet [2005-03-09 10:22:28] barlow - terrorists use rental trucks, but we don't talk about banning them. somehow, the internet brings up a certain immune response... [2005-03-09 10:22:47] marc - telephone network or something that can be controlled might make it easier to have a grand attack... [2005-03-09 10:23:07] rmack - all tools are useful to terrorists. maybe this doesn't need to be a subhead [2005-03-09 10:23:30] davidw - the internet is more useful than rental trucks because it's distributed and you can hide on it... [2005-03-09 10:23:48] davidw - group we're talking to probably believes the internet is very useful to terrorists [2005-03-09 10:24:30] jeffmoss - and the internet's destructive capabilities are still limited. It can provide efficient communication, but not blow up buildings... [2005-03-09 10:25:04] jeffmoss - terrorists would get by just fine without the internet. we think the internet is important because we care about it... [2005-03-09 10:25:45] martin - who are we writing this for and what we should be thinking about it. What's most important is that this group of people got together and is coming up with a negotiated consensus [2005-03-09 10:26:23] martin - should give a name to whatever we come up with and, if we believe in this, we should continue believing in this. If we call this "The Madrid Standard" as the joint position of this group, it will have more survival than just presenting it at this conference. [2005-03-09 10:26:46] barlow - suggest "The Madrid Design [2005-03-09 10:28:06] introduction - viran from India. headed up terrorism group in India, now heads up the terrorism group of a thinktank in India [2005-03-09 10:28:36] viran - we don't restrict use of the internet in India despite incredible domestic impact of terror. [2005-03-09 10:28:42] From Google News: Bush calls democracy terror's antidote http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0309bush-terror09.html [2005-03-09 10:28:45] viran - this document has to be saleable... [2005-03-09 10:29:25] viran - there must be one sentence that shows you're sensitive to the possible misuse of the internet, and that it's possible to make use of the Internet by security services [2005-03-09 10:30:32] viran - one of the reasons people are so concerned is that people are using the Internet for communications. bin Ladn is so hard to find because he doesn't use telephones. [2005-03-09 10:30:44] *** RMacK (~Rebecca_M@213.229.139.162) joined [2005-03-09 10:30:45] RMacK is sometimes a slightly devil's advocate and quite good at it [2005-03-09 10:30:52] viran - Islamists want to use modern technology to bring society backwards, not forwards [2005-03-09 10:31:29] joi - had a discussion about this - most of it came from Chris. Law enforcement community tends to be using old tools like wiretap, not new tools, to make this stuff happen. [2005-03-09 10:32:03] joi - datamining technology is behind because law enforcement is using old techiques. Terrorists are more responsive to new technology than the terrorists [2005-03-09 10:33:02] joi - we believe that if you cracked down on anonymity, you wouldn't prevent terrorists from having anonymous communication... but you'd prevent average people from protecting their identity [2005-03-09 10:33:45] barlow - we used to fight over encryption - if there were encryption, it would be a net loss for society. Had that happened, we wouldn't have an economy online, which is a net good for society [2005-03-09 10:34:11] jeffmoss - law is using old tools because that's what the courts recognize. Courts are ten years behind. [2005-03-09 10:34:21] barlow - FBI is really technophobic [2005-03-09 10:34:53] marc - correct to say law enforcement can be smarter... but they're trying. Use of new tools should be subject to law. When surveilance took place within telephone networks, there were laws, courts, etc. [2005-03-09 10:35:12] marc - there's a big difference between us and the terrorists, which is that we behave under laws and they don't [2005-03-09 10:35:13] *** alvy quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) [2005-03-09 10:35:41] jeffmoss - increase the spead of language analysis from a month to an hour is much smarter than developing new ways to wiretap [2005-03-09 10:37:13] joi - people responsible for 9/11 used their own identities, unencrypted emails, and were searched at airport security... [2005-03-09 10:37:36] joi - why don't we take the intel we have and analyze it better. why introduce more information that we can't analyze [2005-03-09 10:38:09] stefan - might open up a whole can of worms if we don't include the statement that policy and technology have to go hand in hand [2005-03-09 10:39:09] stefan - everyone knows about TIA and datamining - we only want to support new technologies for law enforcuement if they're sensitive to existing laws and principles [2005-03-09 10:39:30] davidw - if we can briefly get a bit more specific, we'll address viran's concern and acknowledge there's a problem that needs to address... [2005-03-09 10:40:17] marko - summarizing - a slight revision to the second section. Revising the headline, acknowledgement of risk to law enforcement. We could split into small groups and argue this out [2005-03-09 10:40:47] viran - law enforcement people have concerns. you may not think they're legitimate. [2005-03-09 10:40:59] barlow - if we don't think they're relavent, should we acknowledge them> [2005-03-09 10:41:35] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4327067.stm [2005-03-09 10:42:13] joi - section three - some disagreement about the idea "what's against the law off the net is against the law on the net" [2005-03-09 10:42:47] joi - VOIP is illegal in a lot of developing nations - do we think that's a good thing [2005-03-09 10:42:58] martin - think it's only applicable to open societies or democracies [2005-03-09 10:43:52] andrew - we don't view the internet as magical happy land where no rules apply - idea of equivalence [2005-03-09 10:44:16] isen - in most cases, existing laws apply... [2005-03-09 10:45:58] yay mark rotenberg!!! get us back on track!!!! [2005-03-09 10:46:36] marc - is it possible to avoid this discussion? what's illegal off the net is illegal on is just shorthand for not condoning lawlessness - maybe we don't need it here [2005-03-09 10:46:50] danG - internet is a tool, a marvelous tool, but it can be misused. [2005-03-09 10:47:13] danG - have to acknowledge power for misuse. can't fail to acknowledge fears. [2005-03-09 10:47:37] rmack - one sentence at top of document acknowledging reality of fears, then positive recommendations [2005-03-09 10:47:49] marko - andrew, please draft third section and add the legalese [2005-03-09 10:48:16] barlow would like us to be unpredictable, but can't predict what that would be [2005-03-09 10:48:52] barlow - we have the opportunity to think about managing terrorism. we have the advantage of being smart and ignorant about the topic. there may be insights we could "gin up" that would be useful. [2005-03-09 10:49:19] martin - we never picked up on pekka's line that the world has become globalized, but we don't have any form of global gov't [2005-03-09 10:49:55] martin - people who makes decisions on the net are making decisions on the only global body that seems to be working. Better than the UN. I don't use the UN everyday but I use the net everyday [2005-03-09 10:50:39] *** hdhd (~hdhd@201-1-158-253.dsl.telesp.net.br) joined [2005-03-09 10:51:05] martin - maybe there's something very positive to learn about internet governance about ways the rest of the world can be governed [2005-03-09 10:51:24] who is speaking now? [2005-03-09 10:51:45] unknown new guest - internet gives us the tools to govern without a government. able to govern in a way that gives civil society the tools to participate [2005-03-09 10:51:46] dunno but i like it! [2005-03-09 10:52:19] joi - modern democractic society created the internet through a bottom-up process. mirror of where the people want to be, built through a participatory process. notion of bottom up enabled, embodied by the internet [2005-03-09 10:53:08] joi - coin a term - internet democracy, bottom up democracy. After the internet, process of international treaties completely changed because NGOs were able to communicate via the internet [2005-03-09 10:53:27] martin - let's get out of the offensive and attack. More proactive [2005-03-09 10:55:34] barlow: you know about Amara's Law? (Amara's Law == Short term impact of x is less than projected, long term impact of x is much greater than expected) [2005-03-09 10:56:03] it might apply to "Dec of Indep in Cyberspace" [2005-03-09 10:56:06] andrew - new section - what the fight on terrorism can learn from the internet [2005-03-09 10:57:00] visitor from civil society group - working groups have been inspired by madrid and the response to the bombing. people of madrid have shown that you can respond to the bombing by creating new social networks. sms networks to get people to do stretcherbearing, internet mobilisation around oil tanker disaster [2005-03-09 10:57:10] SMS nets also got out the vote to overturn the old regime right after Mar 11! [2005-03-09 10:57:35] SMS challenged the MSM stories [2005-03-09 10:57:40] civilsocietyguy - infrastructure is important, but social acts are important as well. build-a-third-force.net [2005-03-09 10:58:16] *** alvy (~alvy@151.Red-83-42-137.pooles.rima-tde.net) joined [2005-03-09 10:58:18] civilsocietyguy - peoplesvoice, onevoice, all a bit dodgy but learning to do these things in a decentralizes way... [2005-03-09 10:59:04] barlow - spent the last two days with the admiral of the Navy SEALs. have probably done more to run down radicals in afghaistan and iraq [2005-03-09 10:59:24] barlow - his whole system is a netbased system that relies on IM, peer to peer. Internet is the command and control method [2005-03-09 11:00:09] barlow - some of the most effective uses of the internet in the war against terror have been by the military [2005-03-09 11:01:12] andrew - super-predictable outcome is some huge network to coordinate participation blah blah blah. world is riddled with lame declarations. might be worth saying - if the internet teaches anything, building new organizational structures is not what's required. what's required is a personal commitment for people to engage, participate, etc. [2005-03-09 11:02:00] andrew - no ceremonies, no speeches, no dignitaries giving speeches - just don't screw up the medium that lets us self-organize [2005-03-09 11:02:43] marc - people may see internet as part of the problem. we're trying to sell them as Internet as part of the solution. if we emphasize that, very important [2005-03-09 11:04:41] pekka - would be good to have fifth section. So far, the document largely says - leave the internet alone and open. fifth section could offfer new and fresh ideas that could be explored more. might not be as precise, but could be potentially interesting ideas. [2005-03-09 11:05:51] davidw - section on expanding democracy by expanding the internet. the best lessons of how the Internet organizes are the best examples of how democracies respond to challenges. core democratic values [2005-03-09 11:06:30] joi - another audience question for martin: at extremes, we have heads of state that don't believe in computers, don't believe in democracy. do we have to target those jerks, or only the leaders who get it? [2005-03-09 11:07:16] martin - we should write what we believe in [2005-03-09 11:07:49] civilsocietyguy - internet does skepticism well. we should be skeptical. we should also be practically idealistic. people build good stufff on the internet via practical idealism [2005-03-09 11:08:55] barlow - we really don't know why terrorism happens? Why do people do violent acts instead of other forms of resistance? If we want to do something about terror, lets use our tools and understand more about terror? [2005-03-09 11:09:20] civilsocietyguy - how do we build bridging as well as bonding capacity on the internet [2005-03-09 11:09:57] nancy - people use the internet for new purposes. how do we support people to invent new things on the internet. we're likely to see the US government try to get control of who uses the internet. if our hypothesis is true, how do we protect that? [2005-03-09 11:11:05] jeffmoss - want to acknowledge future technology, changes to the internet. in a few years, low power, mesh, voip - people will reinvent the way the net will be used. so pervasive there will be other, unpredictable social impacts [2005-03-09 11:12:22] *** alvy quit (Remote closed the connection) [2005-03-09 11:12:24] *** minx (~MeanieHed@zahadum.netpolicy.com) joined [2005-03-09 11:12:37] *** minx changed nick to MikkiBarry [2005-03-09 11:12:40] ejovi - what's the intended lifespan of this document? [2005-03-09 11:13:49] martin: we want to get out of this a design or standard, or belief of this group on what should be done to the internet if anything. now that were confronted w/ global terror. if we come up with general set of principles hopefully thatll have longevity [2005-03-09 11:13:52] *** buridan (~palehorse@128.173.114.36) joined [2005-03-09 11:14:03] just think certain principles will probably last a long time and we should go for them. [2005-03-09 11:14:13] (taking over for ethanz while he steps out) [2005-03-09 11:14:38] moss: for reasons of economics people became balkanized, but in presence of infrastructure attack that harms us. [2005-03-09 11:14:43] Hi buridan [2005-03-09 11:15:01] hi rvr [2005-03-09 11:15:17] i'm in seattle and send data to friend down the street that goes through hub in chicagol.. thats efficiency loss and if were going to be resilient against terror we need to think about these things. [2005-03-09 11:15:34] andrew m. - the internet is more effective and more resilient the more of a mesh it is. [2005-03-09 11:16:13] .... but if it didn't go through chicago, would it go through any number of other hubs, or could it be reconfigured in short order to do so.... [2005-03-09 11:16:33] andrew m: the more people are linked to each other in a mesh, the more they can communicate usefully, the less you have to route the fight on terror thru central control, the more you engage between decentralized nodes, the better the fight on terror will be, if you're applying lessons of net to the war on terror. [2005-03-09 11:16:59] weinberger: there are a couple paths to make this document more noticed and longer lived... [2005-03-09 11:17:22] one would be to come up with five words on how you address the issue of saving the internet [2005-03-09 11:17:51] weinberger: another would be on set of 4 or 5 statements that are so clear, crisp and intuitive that people will definitley pay attention. [2005-03-09 11:18:23] joi says: darpa document is really well and crisply written [2005-03-09 11:18:33] joi: and we should use that as model [2005-03-09 11:19:09] marc rotenberg: kim campbell on the 9/11 commission report: everybody was very taken by the writing and this was a good model for club of madrid [2005-03-09 11:19:50] noriko says: uncomfortable about putting the internet as part of anti-terror fight since terrorists are using internet too [2005-03-09 11:20:01] noriko: sounds too idealistic in a way. [2005-03-09 11:20:17] noriko: is this for governments and armed forces to see or for head of states? [2005-03-09 11:21:42] noriko: internet is always transient - do we need to divide the concept of "internet" into several parts that could be grasped [2005-03-09 11:22:07] viran: terrorists are physically distant, but are able to network very closely because of the internet [2005-03-09 11:22:55] viran - predictable response is to try to ban the internet. unpredictable response is to encourage terrorists to use it. When terrorists use technology, they're vulnerable. [2005-03-09 11:23:35] viran - example - Dar Es Salaam explosions. Operation was organized by bin Ladn, didn't even use the telephone. meant that anti-terror forces were completely helpless to detect it [2005-03-09 11:24:09] viran - need to avoid knee-jerk reactions to closing down the internet [2005-03-09 11:25:43] who is this guy? [2005-03-09 11:25:48] does anybody know? [2005-03-09 11:25:59] which guy? [2005-03-09 11:26:05] the one talking now [2005-03-09 11:26:08] he's very talkative [2005-03-09 11:26:09] civilsocietyguy - people are redefining a problem - addressing larger scenarios of inequality, etc. book: "Shield of Achilles". author was rapporteur for Democratization stuff - in 1435, madrid was hit by the plague, there's still a wall around madrid [2005-03-09 11:26:23] theres no way we will have a document in 30 mins [2005-03-09 11:26:26] "you guys"? [2005-03-09 11:26:45] let's try to steer this back to the document... [2005-03-09 11:27:29] in fact i kind of doubt we'll have a doc [2005-03-09 11:27:49] proposal - break up into small groups, address sections of the document in small groups [2005-03-09 11:28:03] marko - add "stretch goals" to the fourth section [2005-03-09 11:28:12] marko - second section: joi, davidw [2005-03-09 11:28:26] marko - third section: mclaughlin [2005-03-09 11:28:41] well, it's been my experience is that most things like documents that arise from this sort of thing arise about 2 years after and are constructed by a small group of committed people within weeks of the confererence, who then submit it to ongoing discussion to the larger group, which then takes years [2005-03-09 11:30:06] marko: new section (fourth section rewrite?) what can we learn from the internet about fighting terrorism? [2005-03-09 11:30:33] maybe we need to actually try and write it tomorrow afternoon [2005-03-09 11:30:46] jeffmoss - did we ever get crazy enough to satisfy Barlow? [2005-03-09 11:30:48] do we really need to have it done today? [2005-03-09 11:31:00] barlow - what would help is if I heard something we haven't thought of before? [2005-03-09 11:31:26] barlow - what's terrorism, why it exists, how we stop it? [2005-03-09 11:31:31] that's probably the best strategy RMack [2005-03-09 11:31:42] i dont think we should try to finish today. [2005-03-09 11:31:58] i think we should see what comes out of the public session tomorrow in reaction to what we say, then construct the doc [2005-03-09 11:32:00] not today, but tomorrow, or soon [2005-03-09 11:32:00] paul - article in La Pais yesterday said best way to fight terrorism is open democracy. Might seem uncontroversial, but is actually very controversial... [2005-03-09 11:32:07] agree with rmack, too [2005-03-09 11:32:07] wish i would get a chance to say this. [2005-03-09 11:32:13] cant get word in edgewise [2005-03-09 11:32:30] barlow - internet, by its very nature, is a democratizing tool. Renegotiates existing power relationships. Rather than bombing people into democracy, connect people into democracy [2005-03-09 11:32:56] rmack - do we need this document today, or can we present the basic outline [2005-03-09 11:33:11] marko - that's fine - we can do this further on, use this to anchor the presentation [2005-03-09 11:34:24] martin - idea of connecting people, rather than bombing them. we may find more elegant ways of saying it (to appease the US), but any kind of policy that promotes massive internet use should be part of the document. If we believe world was fully connected to the net, chance of facism, fearism coming to pass is greatly reduced [2005-03-09 11:34:44] here's what i think we should do now with our remaining time: [2005-03-09 11:35:01] barlow - and it's also true. part of the reason there's a crisis in all three monotheistic religions place control over authority, control over info, and internet has called that into question [2005-03-09 11:35:06] we should sort out right now who will talk about which sections, and the main points they'll talk about. [2005-03-09 11:35:21] have we figured out who this guy is? [2005-03-09 11:35:31] not I... [2005-03-09 11:36:30] can somebody make him identify himself? [2005-03-09 11:36:51] excuse me 'can i ask your name for my notes?' [2005-03-09 11:36:51] HIs name is Paul Helder [2005-03-09 11:37:09] joi - just joiend the board of icann, so a bit defensive. icann is like the galactic federation - klingons, romulans, academics, techies, etc. just sitting around in an ICANN meeting, realize that traditional authorities would never have created a structure like this [2005-03-09 11:38:03] davidw - more openness is the best response to those who would disrupt openness. more connectedness is the best response to those who would disrupt connectedness. [2005-03-09 11:38:31] andrew: disrupt connectedness, abuse openness [2005-03-09 11:40:21] barlow - terrible to say this, and you can forget it if you like: in terms of actual risk, harm to society - terrorism is not the issue. response to terrorism is the issue. [2005-03-09 11:41:44] 2 points for John Perry Barlow [2005-03-09 11:42:13] andrew - I'm fried. let's do the worksmithing tomorrow [2005-03-09 11:42:29] barlow - and if anyone wants to write a paragraph tonight, let's do that as well [2005-03-09 11:42:46] joi - we've got lots of attention-brokers here, lots of bloggers - how do we want to sell this, present this [2005-03-09 11:43:08] DanG - let's make sure we don't look like bumblers tomorrow [2005-03-09 11:43:18] rmack - a little worried that we're not going to work this out tomorrow morning [2005-03-09 11:43:47] marko - maybe the only place of dispute is those stretch claims... can we take a brief breather and reconvene [2005-03-09 11:44:34] street address: Conde de los Gaetanes 26 [2005-03-09 11:44:39] conde de los gaitanes, 26 - 9pm. Van at Palace Hotel at 8:30. Only a few of you will fit... [2005-03-09 11:45:02] conde de los gaitanes 26 [2005-03-09 11:47:11] joi - concluding: Considering how diverse the group was, amazing how much we've concluded. Barlow has an elegant way and will likely blog something as well. Going to narrow something down for the presentation tomorrow, so document thoughts you've thought, thoughts you've heard as well... [2005-03-09 11:47:51] concluded... [2005-03-09 11:48:27] *** johng (~johng@213.229.139.162) joined [2005-03-09 11:48:28] johng is John Gage [2005-03-09 11:52:24] *** johng quit (Client Quit) [2005-03-09 11:52:34] *** MikkiBarry (~MeanieHed@zahadum.netpolicy.com) left () [2005-03-09 11:55:24] *** RMacK quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.66d [Mozilla rv:1.7/20040707]") [2005-03-09 12:07:28] *** hdhd quit ("Fui embora") [2005-03-09 12:10:20] *** Croqueteer quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) [2005-03-09 12:11:40] *** jalonso_ (~chatzilla@213.229.139.162) joined [2005-03-09 12:11:42] *** jalonso quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) [2005-03-09 12:11:52] *** jalonso_ changed nick to jalonso [2005-03-09 12:13:32] *** ircleuser (~pythof@213.229.139.162) joined [2005-03-09 12:13:32] ircleuser is a newbie who needs to learn how to change his nick [2005-03-09 12:13:40] I'm here... [2005-03-09 12:13:59] *** ircleuser changed nick to JohnPerry [2005-03-09 12:14:44] ?desc JohnPerry is John Perry Barlow [2005-03-09 12:15:20] ?def JohnPerry is John Perry Barlow [2005-03-09 12:15:20] JohnPerry is John Perry Barlow [2005-03-09 12:16:00] *** isen quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) [2005-03-09 12:17:52] Here I am addressing the irc channel [2005-03-09 12:18:47] Hereddd [2005-03-09 12:19:53] Is quiet [2005-03-09 12:21:11] *** sman (~sman@dsl-131-17.aei.ca) joined [2005-03-09 12:21:11] yes, too quiet... [2005-03-09 12:26:53] *** AndrewMcGoogle (~andrewmcg@213.229.139.162) left () [2005-03-09 12:32:59] *** Q-FUNK (~q-funk@gw-5.suomicom.fi) joined [2005-03-09 12:32:59] Q-FUNK is at http://www.iki.fi/q-funk [2005-03-09 12:35:25] *** wseltzer quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) [2005-03-09 12:37:12] *** jalonso quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) [2005-03-09 14:56:03] *** now talking in #madridopendemo [2005-03-09 14:56:03] *** topic is http://english.safe-democracy.org/ [2005-03-09 14:56:03] *** set by JoiIto on Tue Mar 08 23:52:14 2005 [2005-03-09 14:56:03] *** channel #madridopendemo mode is +n [2005-03-09 14:56:03] *** channel created at Tue Mar 08 09:42:21 2005 [2005-03-09 14:56:03] joho is blogging at http://hyperorg.com/blogger/ & journal of the hyperlinked organization & David Weinberger & always confused & often miscellaneous [2005-03-09 14:56:03] [freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots, please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup [2005-03-09 14:59:01] *** JoiIto quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) [2005-03-09 15:00:08] <_sj_> what's the login to the wiki that was mentioned? I'd love to see the draft, joho. [2005-03-09 15:01:11] *** Claudi (~chatzilla@AC8237D6.ipt.aol.com) joined [2005-03-09 15:04:34] *** Claudi quit (Client Quit) [2005-03-09 15:04:35] *** isen quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) [2005-03-09 15:05:51] *** weaverluke quit ( ) [2005-03-09 15:11:17] *** buridan quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))