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I'm reading "The God Delusion." It is an easy book and it was free. I'm delighted by Dawkins' intentionality. Yes, he's stirring things up at the interface between those who "believe in" intelligent design and those who understand evolutionary theory and its context. It's again time for this argument to be joined, time for another "monkey trial" or two. The "belief" that Dawkins encounters, the superstition he rejects, must be challenged if we are not to lapse into another dark age.

I think it's that black and white.

These days I'm struggling with an expression of the value of religion to atheists/agnostics like me. I'm challenged to respectfully accept my friends faith in "the divine." Where I see metaphor and rewarding practice, they often see some external metaphysical force for good.

I wonder if the Rev. AKMA's book would help me reconcile my understanding with "faith?" Probably not. Rejection of meaning in text... well, would this comment be as well formed if I had simply keyed in a repetition of quack quack quack quack quack?

But I suppose I had better read "Faithful Interpretation: Reading the Bible in a Postmodern World" before I reject it. And with my attitudes toward the academic scam that was known as postmodernism, I doubt that I'll be receiving a review copy. Since the nearest library copy is 272 miles away I'll just have to scrape up the US$13.60 plus shipping and order one in from Amazon.

fp, I can't tell from your comment if you think all religious people of all religions necessarily believe in intelligent design and reject evolution. They don't. If Dawkins were merely arguing against intelligent design, I'd have no beef with him.

I understand the tug between believing that religious beliefs are superstitions and having friends whom one respects who hold those beliefs. If I had an easy way to resolve it, I'd write it in a note and tuck it into a candygram for you. Sorry!

As for the quacking: You know AKMA, right? So you know he's not stupid or thoughtless. So, there must be more to his belief - which I've expressed inadequately - than how you're taking it. So, yes, I hope you do read the book, although you might find AKMA's "What is postmodern biblical criticism?" a better intro to the topic.

Finding meaning and discerning intent seem to me to be the textual challenge we face with any printed matter, whether some believe it divinely inspired or not. So learning what it means to "reject meaning in text" will be one of my challenges, because I seem to be blocked in my understanding at this point. (I had the same problem shifting my understanding from symbolism to semiotics and signification in the seventies).

I know AKMA and I respect him and whenever I'm challenged by his work, I'm sensitive to the facts that a) he's trained in these matters and I'm an amateur at best, and b) this is his rice bowl and it is an act of violence for me to upset it.

Dawkins' beef with religion is legitimate, I think, and drawing a bright line between matters of religion and science is his intention. I practice a religion and I have a difficult time as my understanding of "the divine" diverges more and more from that of those who "believe in god."

Large institutions, be they governments, corporations, universities, or established multinational religious bodies trouble me, because I know how much politics assures progress, and how much institutional survival trumps honesty and openmindedness and willingness to change. So this is a rich subject for me, and a great conversation, and if I can only manage to conduct myself with AKMA's grace, I figure to learn something and perhaps to influence something too.

I guess if I'm placing an order with Amazon, I might as well buy both books. Adding the second will probably eliminate the shipping charge.

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Well, yes. That too.

Terry Eagleton deals with Dawkins rather well in the current LRB:

"Card-carrying rationalists like Dawkins ... are in one sense the least well-equipped to understand what they castigate, since they don’t believe there is anything there to be understood, or at least anything worth understanding. ... The more they detest religion, the more ill-informed their criticisms of it tend to be. If they were asked to pass judgment on phenomenology or the geopolitics of South Asia, they would no doubt bone up on the question as assiduously as they could. When it comes to theology, however, any shoddy old travesty will pass muster."

Dawkins seems just as religious to me as those which he imagines to oppose. A fundamentalist. Firm, unshakable belief, without bothering to ever verify anything. A bad representative for science.

And, yes, what he argues against is just a particular subset of the subjects of religion and spirituality and concepts of supreme beings and higher intelligences. He argues against this guy with the white beard who supposedly has created the universe. Which is certainly the easiest target, like arguing against Santa Claus or the Tooth Faery. The mistake he makes is that he lumps all the other stuff in with it, and acts like he somehow has proven that there's no higher intelligence in the universe, merely by pointing out that the guy-with-the-white-beard thing is a little silly and improbable. It is a little childish, and as far as scientific methodology is concerned a completely inane approach, and I'm surprised that so many otherwise intelligent people regard him as such a hero.

As I was just surprised to read, Dawkins admits that science has no clue what conscience is. Doesn't seem very scientific to then jump to the conclusion that the universe of course doesn't have any.

From the conflict of differing opinions arises the spark of truth.
--Baha'u'llah, Persian prophet

Damn, I meant consciousness, not conscience. I accidentally thought it in French.

I'm somewhere around the atheistic side of agnosticism, and I too find Richard Dawkins an embarrassment. Frustrating, because he clearly has good ideas, but his anticrusading does make him seem like a fundamentalist (there are significant differences in backing science over any arbitrary god(s)). What's more, his unholier-than-thou manner just plain irritates the //hell// Wal-Mart out of me.

some "Abrahamic" religions don't really much care about faith in the first place.

Which ones?

"But, while he thinks he's arguing against all "Abrahamic" religions, he's in fact arguing against one branch of one religion. He seems to have not the slightest idea that not all religions think of faith as he characterizes it, and some "Abrahamic" religions don't really much care about faith in the first place."

Really? What gives you that impression? Yes, he's tilting at an area that he finds particularly offensive - one that is linked not surprisingly to a defense of his own field of expertise - but his arguments run across the board.

"And he's stirring up hatred and misunderstanding...exactly what he accuses Religion of doing."

He plays to the crowd in order that people will listen. I don't believe he stirs up hatred - although he is deliberately provocative, he challenges the religious to refute what he says. Sadly, they are often unable to do so - and so resort to attacks on his presentation style, rather than his substance.

"He ought to shut up for a while and go hang out with a variety of religious folks. Field work, Richard, field work!"

He does fieldwork, but only in his field. This is a more personal book than his usual popular science volumes, not intended to be a scientific discourse but a philosophical position.

So what I'd like to know is - what's your actual position on the main argument of his book?

Poetry heals the wounds inflicted by reason.

Novalis

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As I will amply illustrate, I am no scholar; in fact, my life has been for better or worse guided by basic education, raw gut feelings, observations of life around me, and I hope some generous dollops of empathy for my fellow heathens.

I am a youngish senior who intuitively believes that some spiritual entity/force/whatever exists which connects itself to us in some way which we will discover only WHEN we finally deal with every single aspect of the brain. I think that's where the secret of life and death is hidden.

However, since collective man is far more interested in amassing resources to produce material things, enrich the rich, and discover and deploy all manner of diabolical weapon to gain power over others, the brain remains a relative mystery--and the mystery of life continues to elude us.

The only thing I am intuitively certain of is that the bible and all other religious books are unfortunate jokes. Churches, temples, synogogues, and all other houses of worship attended by "holy" wo/men are a total waste of man's resources. That we should require a man-made structure manned by so-called trained theologians to instruct we great unwashed in all things spiritual is ridiculous.

Given the hundreds if not thousands of religions that have existed over the ages, which one if any is the "real thing?" That I should choose one over any of the others is inherently absurd.

Rally around the brain boys! Therein lies the answer(s) to every conceivable question! But since collective man has repeatedly proven himself to be collectively uninquisitive, he's been easily led by a motivated few.

Alas, we may never get the answers for which some of us are searching.

RE Dawkins

Richard Dawkins - Speaks in Lynchberg Virginia
http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/2006/12/richard-dawkins-speaks-in-lynchberg.html

Please read beyondevolutionistheregodafterdawkins.blogspot.com. It is a very specific refutation of many of Dawkins' points from a spiritual perspective that includes but reinterprets his finding.

I have a very big story to tell all of you. It kind of answers all of your questions about whether or not there is a God. My story is that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost talked to me. I have proof. Now God talked to me just like he talked to Abraham, Daniel and John in a series of dreams. In the dreams I was told the meaning of First is Last and Last is First. Birth is Last. Now Jesus told me a number of things but it is to long to write here. Another point is that Jesus talked to me, not any other God. Logic would say that since there is one God, and one Son all others are false prophets. Now for all of you that want proof. You really don’t want God to talk to you. It has been very difficult for me. Everyone has been calling me names like crazy, looney, etc. No one believes me and I have proof. You would think that people would like to see the proof. They don’t care to see it and they don’t want to know what else God had to say to me. So even though I have proof it seems that God wants you to find out the truth for yourselves. He said look and you will find. Now I study plants, my studies lead me to believing in God. My question was, ‘How do plants know about insects and animals?’ They make flowers for the insects to come and fruit for the animals to eat. How can they possibly know about animals, they don’t have a brain? God does. I just couldn’t see this as being coincidential. Now I don’t go to Church and I didn’t read the bible before the Holy Trinity dropped in on me. My thought was that the Pope or someone in the church would be a better choice that me, I am no one important. Then I have been reading some of what other people have been saying about the Church. Maybe God does not agree with the Church either. Another thing, Jesus told me the meaning of the Numbers. Most of us think we know everything. He said that there are a Number of people that are full of Crap, that includes you and me. Thank you for letting me write on you site. Melanie Stephan

I'm on your side (as far as dawkins goes, i'm not familiar with AKMA); as an atheist, i'm embarrassed that richard dawkins and I share the same beliefs. Militant atheism is a joke. I think that some people are just too unstable to not have religion. Religion gives people family, or just something into which to poor faith, and as sad as it is, to teach people what is right and what is wrong. Sure, i don't need god to know that i shouldn't kill people, but some people are, sadly, too narrow-minded to devise morals without god. If a murderer enters a prison and becomes religious and decides that Jesus convinced him to no longer kill people, i'd say that that's a wonderful thing.

You can read more of what God had to say during the month of Aug. 2007, on this website Non-Prophet, Are you going to Hell? Melanie also gives PROOF that God
made contact on this site. The proof is in the story of 3 famous people Mike Douglas, Merv
Griffin and Nancy Reagan. I hope you get it. God went to a lot of trouble to get his message
out. He is also worried about all of his creations. That means he thinks about you too.